R P G A M E R . C O M   - R O U N D T A B L E

Least Favorite RPG Clichés

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Liv: Hello and welcome to tonight's Roundtable. The topic tonight is RPG clichés!

Liv: The first topic is...

Liv: What are some of your least favorite RPG clichés?

Joshua: Hm...

Marshall: Hm...excellent question.

Diana: Hm...

Liv: I would have to say saving a princess.

Joshua: People with unnatural hairstyles/haircolors.

Tom: Oh for me...it's the "spiky-haired guy with a sword."

Marshall: I'd have to say my very least favorite is the fact that most characters are archetypes; the brave swordsman, the wise mage, etc., even in newer RPGs.We need some new character types.

Liv: I agree. Most of these are hero-related ones, so it seems to me that heroes seem to be the main cause of distress among gamers.

Tom: In the majority of RPGs, the main protagonist A) wears a sword; B) is male; C) perpetually looks like he has bed-hair.

Liv: There's just not enough variety with them.

Marshall: That's a fair assertion.I find that there's a good variety of villains and villain motivations out there, but we see the same ten or so heroes over and over.

Liv: There's been a few more female ones lately, which is a nice change, but there's not a lot.

Liv: Although I still don't like the typical "take over the world" plot used by the majority of villains.

Marshall: True, but at least their motivations for taking over the world are pretty varied.

Tom: Well, the "take over the world plot" seems to be falling behind the "Destroy everything in the world". I see that one a lot more in recent RPGs.

Liv: Yeah, this is true too.

Marshall: Frankly, I don't think there's much of a difference between the two.

Liv: It almost always includes major destruction though.

Liv: Ahaha.

Marshall: Whether someone wants to take over or destroy the world, the basic idea is that you, as the good-hearted heroes, can't let that happen.

Tom: Well, I'd say there's a huge difference. Someone that wants to rule a world would be pretty silly to kill everyone first. No one to make you coffee!

Liv: Ahahaha, good point.

Liv: And it always involves you going on some quest.

Marshall: Well, yeah, theoretically there's a different outcome, but if you lose, you get a Game Over either way.

Liv: I wish there would be something other than Game Over when you lost.

Liv: Like...if an enemy said he would capture you or something, then if you lost, you would get taken captive and have a different part of storyline!

Diana: Hmm...

Tom: That's been done to a lesser extent in several games.Sometimes you're forced to lose...other times, you could win or lose, and which you do affects the plotline.

Diana: That reminds me of Metal Gear Solid 3, when if you get beaten by The End he drags you back to prison.

Liv: See, that's more realistic!

Diana: Something like that implemented RPGstyle.

Liv: I kinda like that.

Diana: So your penalty is making it all the friggin way back to fight him again, hehe.

Marshall: I know the Tales series loves un-winnable battles; there's another cliché right there.

Liv: Ahaha, that's a good one.

Liv: Those can get annoying after a while...

Alicia: Tales is chock full of clichés, if it weren't for its exceptional character development, it wouldn't be nearly as good.

Tom: Oh, gotta hate unwinnable battles...especially if you waste a ton of resources, limit breaks, what-have-you, only to get pasted.

Marshall: I don't mind one or two of them early on, but some games have you continually fighting the same person over and over and losing.

Liv: Yeah.

Tom: *cough*TalesofLegendia*cough*Walter*cough*Vaclav*cough*

Marshall: I guess it's supposed to make it more satisfying when you finally clobber him in the end, but it's not realistic.

Alicia: I hate Wally.

Liv: One thing I hate about RPGs is that you always have to collect some kind of thing..

Liv: ie.crystals, dragons, stones...

Diana: Oh, I know one: bosses that won't DIE.

Diana: *cough* FFX *cough* Seymour *cough*

Alicia: Useless crap for Moogles to make more useless crap with....

Liv: Ahahahaah. Very much agreed.

Tom: Well, I have to say it works.I was all but cheering when I plastered Wally near the end of the ToL main quest.

* Alicia kicks KH2.

Diana: Like, how many times do I have to face off against the same guy (ooh, now hes more powerful!) until he leaves me alone?

Marshall: Whoa, careful about the ToL spoilers; I'm still playing.

Alicia: Terrent: XD I just got through that part. It felt sooo good.

Tom: Eep, well, shouldn't have spoiled too much there.

Liv: Lol.

Marshall: Nah, it's fine.

Ann: Don't forget the purple octopus that would never die.  My beloved Ultros.

Marshall: Ultros is the classic example of a boss who kind of tapered off towards the end of the game.

Ann: If it weren't for his witty comments, I'd hate him because of his constant reappearances that defied any laws of nature.

Alicia: Least he didn't drop off the face of the Earth with no explanation.

Marshall: You fought him over and over, but it didn't serve any useful function.

Alicia: Like certain Grandia 3 bosses.

Liv: Those are the worst kind of bosses...

Tom: No..the worst bosses are Bonus bosses. The ones that take 40+ minutes to kill.I'm looking at you, FFX Dungeon Arena.

Liv: Does anyone else hate villains that spout of philosophical nonsense everytime you meet them?

Liv: They get really annoying, and there's usually one in every game.

Marshall: With a passion.

Marshall: It's cool if villains have an interesting motive, but I don't need them becoming Aristotle every time I encounter them.

Diana: Right.

Tom: Aristotle nothing! More like crazed drunk wino prophets.

Marshall: Good point; I shouldn't sully Aristotle so.

Alicia: How about final bosses that had nothing to do with the game up until that point?

Tom: They usually make no sense.

Liv: Ahahaha, sooo true.

Diana: *cough* Seymour *cough*

Ann: Philosophical nonsense, be it coming from hero or villain, is almost always annoying.Sometimes if it reflects the plot, it is fine. But...to quote Kefka, sometimes they "sound like pages from a self-help booklet."

Tom: Seymour, Kuja, Sephiroth...

Diana: Right, it'd be nice to have a boss that can somehow not be crazy, but yet have a decent reason for destroying/taking over the world.

Liv: Ahahahahaaha.

Liv: Yeah, get someone normal for once, who just has a different view from everyone else.

Diana: Anyone ever read Death Note?

Liv: Not all villains have to be hopelessly crazy and maniacal.

Marshall: I thought the final boss of Tales of Symphonia was an excellent example of how a villain can carry on entirely too much.

Marshall: I just wanted him to shut up after a while; I got the point.

Tom: Or a final boss that, for no apparent reason, must change to at least 2 additional forms before you finish him.

Marshall: Additional final boss forms are by no means exclusively an RPG cliché; that's a gaming standard.

Diana: That's a good example of creating a story where the good guys and bad guys are in a big gray mush.

Diana: You know what I loved?

Diana: Chrono Trigger's main villian.

Diana: Lavos never rambled on because he didn't speak.

Alicia: He just sat there and decimated you.

Liv: Yeah, I agree.

Marshall: That's a good point; we always have silent protagonists, but the villains never shut up.

Diana: Thats what more video games need.

Ann: No, Lavos was just an incenerator...those things don't talk...they burninate.

Diana: Exactly. Refreshing, isn't it?

Diana: Ahhh, the fire

Tom: True, but still annoying.  Why, and how, does this little man turn into a monster, then a Lovecraftian nightmare, and finally some kind of Angel/Demon thing, before I kill him for good?

Alicia: The last boss of FF9 was that way too.

Alicia: Even though he had NOTHING to do with the story at all.

Liv: I liked Lavos as a villain. There wasn't a huge cutscene that you had to watch everytime you died and tried again.

Ann: I loved it. It was more intimidating than someone who talks like a eunick.

Diana: Let's not get into the 4th disc of FFIX, haha.

Ann: *cough* Seymour

Diana: Ah Chrono Trigger. How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.

Michael: Seymour was just another FF mangirl.

Diana: Mangirl, haha.

Tom: Yeah, FF does have a thing for beating up pretty boys.

Alicia: Kuja was the best mangirl though.

Diana: Oh yeah.

Marshall: Or just pretty-boys in general; take a look at some of the heroes.

Diana: I didn't know Kuja's sex until I was halfway through the game!

Alicia: He made that game for me.

Ann: Well, that's a cliché that bothers me...mangirls.

Michael: Kuja's hips had me lusting after him till I figured out he was a he.

Marshall: I've actually always been a Kuja fan; I found his motivations to be a pleasant change from the typical power-hungry villain.in the Fabulous XIII in KH2 - woulda fit right in.

Michael: It was like the Crying Game.

Diana: Anyone else excited that FFXIII seems to star a girl and not a mangirl?

Liv: I am!

Tom: Sorry Charlie, the girl in FFXIII isn't the main character as of the last news I read.

Diana: NOOOOOO!!!

Alicia: But maybe s/he is just the mangirliest of them all....

Liv: Really?

Diana: Aw man.

Liv: Guys with long hair REALLY don't turn me on...

Liv: They're just annoying and usually spouted philosophical drivel.

Joshua: Is it me or has this drifted off topic a bit?

Diana: ManGirls are a RPG cliché - we're on topic. Hehe.

Joshua: Uh, okay then...

Michael: Kefka was one of the non-mangirls villains in FF history.

Alicia: Kefka was awesome.

Marshall: He was a good villain.

Diana: We should join heads and create a cliché-less RPG and see how it turns out.

Marshall: Ah, see, that's a slippery slope.

Alicia: He was one of the more villianous villians in the series.

Tom: That's...arguable.Some of the offical artwork for Kefka makes him look a little fruity, but he was still probably one of the best villains.

Alicia: Just did evil crap for the heck of it.

* Diana seconds Tom's point.

Marshall: We all pretend to hate clichés, but in some cases, you need the audience to take some stuff for granted.

Diana: I liked Luc in Suiko III - bit of a three-dimensional guy, didn't prattle much...

Michael: At least in FFVI, Kefka stayed as the main boss, unlike the cliché of having someone come out of nowhere.

Liv: I didn't like Setzer in FFVI. He was a very girly man.

Tom: You think he was bad in VI, have you seen KH2 yet?

Liv: Lol, yes I have.

Liv: Ok, a few more comments and we'll go to the next topic!

Michael: I'm just glad to have coined the term mangirl.

Joshua: This basically seems like 'FF discussion' rather than 'RPG discussion' >_>

Joshua: I don't play FFs.I tend to keep away from them.

Joshua: So I feel very left out :P

Tom: Well, let's face it...FF has had such an impact on the market it -creates- the trends.

Liv: We had a lot of other ones earlier.

Marshall: Oh, mangirls are by no means restricted to FF; they don't turn up all that often in Western RPGs, though.

Marshall: I've never seen a mangirl in a Bioware RPG, for example.

Diana: Yeah.

Joshua: Western RPGs.

Joshua: WA2.

Joshua: Now that game kicked butt.

Josh: WA2...did not kick butt...but please continue.

Marshall: Well, I meant RPGs developed in North America.

Tom: Can't recall any mangirls in the Tales games.

Diana: Xenosaga has some mangirls goin' on.

Joshua: I still loved WA2.:P

Liv: Mangirls must be more attractive to the Japanese community.

Tom: Now you want REAL mangirls, go play Magna Carta.

Michael: Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.

Michael: Oh dear.

Joshua: Even though the main MALE character in WA2's name was Ashley. Lawl.

Joshua: That must've sucked butt.

Liv: Alright! Next topic!