Jordan: The last topic I wanted to briefly touch upon is the relationship between heroes and villains Specifically with villains that turn hero or heroes that turn villain

Steve: hmmm

Steve: the whole cast of Chrono Cross x.x

Jordan: Many games have a villian that turns hero toward the end. Two examples are Magus and Bowser, and there are many, many more

Steve: true

Brendan: Yeah, or turns out to be related to the hero.

David: Restated for emphasis: The hero is a normal, uncertain person who grows into a physically and mentally powerful hero. He must develop an ideology through his trials and come to a final battle where he faces the villains physical and mental power. He must defeat the villain by being physically strong enough and defeat his ideology by being mentally strong enough.

Nick: Heroes that turn villain? Can't think of many of those...

Bryan: I would agree with all of that except the mandate that the hero begin uncertain -- it can also be very good when the hero begins certain, but loses that certainty.

David: Sephiroth was technically a hero that turned villain

David: That's fine Aethelred, as long as the hero grows and becomes certain of a righteous belief.

Steve: indeed

Brendan: Yeah, but that was only revealed after a certain point in the game.

David: In fact it's better if he starts out with misguided beliefs

Bryan: Right, Limdallion. Like I said, I agreed with everything else you mentioned there.

Scott: like "I'm going to see Santa" or "Equal pay for equal work"?

Brendan: In FFT when Algus shows his true colors, that was some pretty good stuff. Lots of people hate Algus, but man was he effective.

David: My mind is blank, I can't think of anymore Heroes going Villains

Scott: Ghaleon

David: Perfect

Steve: Delita

Bryan: Luc, in Suikoden III.

Scott: Steve:

Scott: :x

Nick: Except Ghaleon turns back into pseudo-hero again in the end.

Scott: bah, no

Scott: EB never happened

Steve: I am not a hero-turned-villain :O

Brendan: That single thing is what made Ghaleon so interesting. But then in the second, he suddenly becomes... good. And then you hear about his little 'fairy friends'

Scott: like I said, Benny. EB's Ghaleon never happened

Scott: optical illusion

David: Ghaleon works. He's a good example of how he was defeated physically and his ideology was defeated at the same time. That's why he becomes good.

Scott: he became dead, not good

David: Many villains repent on death's door. Edmund from King Lear is one of the most famous early examples

Scott: he didn't repent at all IIRC

Scott: happens IRL too, Benny, death row inmates converting. Fear of death

Brendan: that's true. Why is it that before a villain dies, they suddenly become 'good'? Queen Brahne for example.

Steve: forgot about her

Bryan: Defeat gives us time to reflect on the things we've done and the mistakes we've made.

David: Because they die because they are physically beaten obviously but they become good because they're ideology is defeated at the same time

Brendan: Yes well, that's another topic for another time o_O.

Scott: it is real world example of what you are describing

David: In fact think of it this way. The physical battle between the hero and villain is a metaphor for their battle of ideologies!

Scott: it is not off topic in the slightest

Steve: actually, aren't we having a battle of ideologies here right now?

Brendan: er... sure.

Steve: differing ideas

Bryan: Which one of us is evil?

David: Deep deep down, the villain always knew they were wrong. They just needed someone to pummel them to admit it to themselves.

Nick: I'm evil, but I'll turn good at the end of the roundtable.

Steve: just because

Steve: and I'm just full of teenage angst, so I'm not really in the running

Jordan: And it's looking like it's about time for Kweee to turn good

Jordan: Any parting thoughts?

Steve: or return

Scott: evil is underrated

Nick: I'm sorry for all the evil I did. kthxbye

Steve: I feel so unloved

Brendan: evil is fun, but it's forbidden.

Bryan: My parting thought is that Denim Powell is the ultimate RPG Hero.

David: I think too many RPGs follow the established form but not so many understand it

David: Do you recall the end battle of FF6 where the characters gather around Kefka and say why they are fighting him?

Scott: I think the philosophical side of RPGs has gotten *way* out of hand

Brendan: I think when they do that it's cheesy.

Scott: too much reasoning, not enough gut

Scott: you *know* this guy is bad and that you *have* to stop them

Steve: or else planet go boom

Scott: you don't have 30 minutes to verbally challenge their ideology

Bryan: I see that as fairly simplistic and pedestrian.

Bryan: It's been done too many times now to justify its continuing usage as a plot.

Scott: Lunar is like that, Aethelred

Bryan: Yes, and Lunar is 15 years old.

Jordan: Well

Scott: I got into it as Alex. I *had* to put Ghaleon out on the tiles

Jordan: on that note

Brendan: it basically makes it blatantly obvious it was all scripted. I like my RPGs to feel 'realistic'. Okay, I lied. Realism is overrated.

Bryan: I'd like to think RPG storytelling has progressed in fifteen years.

Steve: let's all go out for pizza

Jordan: I would like to thank everyone for participating or watching

Steve: anytime, J-ster *

Scott: bows to the Sensei

David: I think that even though Kefka was crazy, there was still a clash of ideologies at the end

Jordan: This Roundtable discussion is closed.