Jordan: And on that note

Jordan: What about villains?

Bryan: The most important relationship between a hero and a villain is the opposition of their beliefs. I usually consider two characters to be amongst the greatest heroes and villains in RPGdom: Lans Hamilton and Lans Tartare, of Tactics Ogre.

Jordan: It seems that every hero has to have a villain

Bryan: What makes them so great is the way their worldviews clash. It isn't just a battle of swords, but of personal philosophies.

Steve: or many villains

Jordan: And there are some that are so very popular

David: That's because the hero has to challenge the villain's ideology

Jordan: like Sephiroth

Steve: don't get me started on him -_-

Jordan: Another that is wildly popular is Magus

Jordan: This is probably due in part to their looks

Jordan: they LOOK much cooler than the hero

Scott: you have to be able to relate to the villain too - just not necessarily as in as positive a way as the hero

David: Yes, Aethelred, that's what I meant before when I said the hero must grow in physical and mental strength to defeat the villain physically and the ideology that they stand by

Steve: oh, but he also has a darker, sadder story than Crono

Jordan: yes he does

Steve: considering Schala's unfortunate disappearance, more people are drawn to sympathy towards him

Scott: but he is ruthless and mean and will mess up anyone who gets in his way

David: Villains are popular because they are free to exercise their will unfettered by moral standards

Jordan: So what do we want in a villain?

Bryan: Complexity. Depth. An ideology more serious than a desire to attain ultimate power and/or destroy the world.

David: The sympathetic villain of course

Steve: a desire that's actually considered moral by some people

Jordan: Why not have him want ultimate power?

Jordan: or her?

David: Because greed is not a complex or interesting value

Jordan: it's not?

Jordan: seems pretty common these days

Brendan: A good villain can make or break a game. If the villain is interesting, the game is more interesting to play.

Bryan: A great villain is going to be as human and real as the hero is. He must be relatable in that sense. It must be the case that we can trace his motivations, his actions, and his choices to his personal beliefs and experiences.

Jordan: I think many people could relate

David: It is but that doesn't make it complex or interesting

Steve: taking over a country that was doing something bad in the first place, is one example

Scott: J, it's because if he or she just wants Friends Season 7 on DVD, it loses its majesty :)

Steve: but I love Phoebe!

Bryan: The great villain should have a quest every bit as much as the hero has a quest. Just as the hero is challenged and confronted and forced to change, so to should the villain.

David: The hero fights for selfless reasons, for things other than himself. The villain fights for selfish reasons. But the most interesting villains lie about their selfish reasons, even lie to themselves and believe that they are righteous

Brendan: There is one case where I would say there is an exception to that, Aethelred, and that's Kefka. Pure insanity almost made him scary.

Jordan: Kefka is another well-loved villain

David: The villain's ideology, although it may seem righteous, is actually rooted in a selfish value.

Jordan: Another is Gannon

Steve: Ultros is mine!

David: I don't like purist sentiments like that, I prefer when everyone has a real stake in it

David: What do you mean?

Bryan: If you look at Krelian, we see what was originally a good and honest man who was corrupted by anger over love and his own losses. Through that corruption, he tries to do something that he believes, mistakenly, is good, but carries it out in very wrong ways.

Scott: the hero is almost *never* selfless

Bryan: He evolves as a villain, just as we expect the hero to evolve and change.

Scott: and often the villain sees themselves as helping

David: That's because Krelian had a selfish value beneath all his righteous actions

Steve: like the whole Gazel Ministry

Steve: wanting to purify everything

Steve: for the greater good

David: I think the definition of a hero is someone who fights selflessly

Steve: of course, Chrono Cross shows how the whole entire planet can be against the human race

Brendan: I'd say what makes Krelian interesting in the first place was his 'reason' for his motives, not his actions.

Scott: Lim, can you provide any examples of it?

David: Any hero, they are all trying to save others right?

David: Cloud, Crono, Terra

Bryan: Perhaps, but not necessarily for selfless reasons.

David: Can you give examples?

Bryan: Terra wasn't fighting strictly for selfless reasons. She did so for many selfish reasons, as well - such as finding out more about herself, trying to find out about her people, and so on.

Steve: indeed

David: Exactly, that's why they don't start out as heroes

Bryan: Those are selfish motives that still result in her doing the right thing. One can be selfish without also wanting to help others in the process, where those goals align.

David: This is the whole character development thing

Scott: they never were selfless

Steve: well, Crono can't talk, so he's out... ^O^

Scott: Cloud was driven to find out who and what he was

David: They were never trying to save the world by the end? They were just being selfish in trying to save it?

Bryan: Yes, Cloud's quest never evolved into a purely selfless one -- in the later parts of his quest, vengeance was always a major goal.

David: Yes... at the beginning

Bryan: Vengeance isn't selfless.

David: I believe Cloud did become a hero by the end

Steve: hmm

Bryan: Yes, he did, but not by becoming selfless.

Scott: he did but the point we're trying to make is that heroes are not selfless

Jordan: Yeah, but what about the villains?

Brendan: They usually have both their own reasons for fighting, and the 'greater good' values. They're both important in any character's development.

David: Yes, but I'm insisting that the villain's "greater good" is just a lie

Bryan: Of course it is. It's just a guise to justify selfish goals mixed with immoral actions.

Jordan: But that's from our point of view

Steve: of course

Jordan: In some cases, the 'villain' would be the 'hero' if the game were the other way around

David: No I think that some even lie to themselves about it being the greater good

Steve: what if the big bad ISN'T human?

Bryan: They're lesser villains.

Steve: even if they have the capacity to blow up the world?

Bryan: A villain that is a villain simply through pure magical evilness is never going to compare with a villain who is that way because of the choices he's made and the things he believes.

Steve: good point

Scott: Lavos vs Magus

Scott: :)

Steve: round one, fight!

Bryan: Those are the villains that can cause us to reflect upon ourselves and question what WE believe. They're the villains that pose the real challenge -- not outright destruction, but philosophical corruption.

Scott: I meant the things he was describing

Brendan: Yeah, it's a matter of opinion in some cases. A good example of that is Tales of Phantasia.

*Tales of Phantasia Spoilers ahead*

At the end of the game, you find out that Dhaos's goal was pretty much the same as yours (he just wanted to save his own world). It's his actions that were evil, but his 'good cause' was genuine in his eyes.

*End Tales of Phantasia Spoilers*

Scott: you have both in one game

David: I think that if a villain has a selfless ideology that still conflicts with the heroes is not a real villain. The point of an epic is to prove that the villain's ideology is wrong, so if they're both possibly righteous then it is not an epic but something else

Steve: hmm

Steve: of course

Steve: Magus wasn't that bad of a guy

Scott: yeah he was

Bryan: Agredd, Limdallion. Again I come back to Lans Hamilton and Lans Tartare. In them, you have two very competing ideologies.

Steve: he did what he thought was right to get back at Lavos

Scott: he'd kill or mess up anyone who got in his way. That's bad

David: Not all villains are purely evil

Brendan: Well if that's a case, I can name a few games that don't have 'real' villains.

Bryan: One believes that humans are basically good and must maintain the freedom to exercise their will, possibly making the wrong decisions and possibly doing evil. The other believes that humans are innately weak, petty, and morally bad, and so must be manipulated by purer individuals to maintain order.

Nick: I can hardly think of very many "purely evil" villains.

Bryan: It's the competition of ideology that offers the greatest battles between a hero and a villain.

Scott: most games take that way too far IMO, Aethelred

Brendan: Good and bad is rather abstract; those are things people define with their morals. Morality is a code, and it's different to everyone.

Scott: it's almost like you're in a philosophy class with just a little action in between :\

David: The theme of an epic is to prove a certain moral value is superior to another

Steve: humans have different ideas based on how they were brought up or their own personal biases

Brendan: a 'purely evil' villain just simply isn't as interesting.

Bryan: Not necessarily, Masamune. It's just that a really epic battle is going to have stakes larger than "end of the world."

Bryan: It's going to have real, human stakes.

Scott: an end of the world is an end to human ideology ;)

David: Right Aethelred, it's not just about physical well-being it's about proving a value

Steve: one's own beliefs

Scott: hard to wax philosophical when everyone's bones are bleaching in the exposed sun

David: Of course as Benny pointed out there are stories which show that two righteous values can conflict

David: And the theme of such stories is to prove that two righteous values can conflict and there is no good or evil in some cases

Steve: indeed

Bryan: Yes, where right and wrong is just a matter of perspective -- that's one of the reasons I've always liked the Suikoden series.

Steve: it's beyond good and evil

Bryan: The villains aren't purely evil -- they're humans with different perspectives.

Steve: no one is right, no one is wrong

Scott: so doesn't might make right? Maybe some of the villains are on to something :)

Steve: they're all trying to just improve their own lives

Bryan: History is written by the victors, right.

Brendan: Now we're getting into Nietzsche?

Bryan: Hey, it's no coincidence all of the Xenosaga games are subtitled with his works.

Brendan: Yeah.

Scott: I dislike when I make my own conclusions, which someone attributes to a philosopher whose works I have never read :P

Bryan: Your views are informed by his writings, even if you've never personally read them.

Bryan: But that's running a bit far aground of heroism and villainy.

David: I like stories where you fight against an obvious evil, but then realize that it is just a different perspective, but then again realize that the perspective is actually rooted in a hidden evil value

David: Does that make sense?

Brendan: Yeah, that's good character development for a villain

Steve: a little

Bryan: Yes, it does.

Scott: anyone ever play Tecmo's Deception? >:)

Brendan: ...Nope.

Bryan: I was soured on Tecmo by Secret of the Stars.

Scott: the game is called Tecmo's Deception. I'm not sure if Tecmo actually made it Master of the house of the devil and kill intruders

Scott: righteous people who come to snuff you out and those who stand behind you. At any rate, your character is basically a villain, a cast-out prince who was framed, but now is committing acts of atrocity for revenge. You can semi-redeem yourself in one of the 4 endings

Bryan: Such as a lack of heroes, villains, or anything else that makes a good game.

Steve: >.>

Jordan: So

Steve: hmm

Jordan: any parting thoughts on villians?

Jordan: I want to briefly touch on a third topic

Steve: it's not about right, it's not about wrong.... it's about power

Scott: you betray someone who comes to trust you to become the

Brendan: Power is second to motive

Steve: I rather like it when you don't know exactly who the villain is, Final Fantasy Tactics anyone?

Brendan: Yeah, same here.

Jordan: Ok

Bryan: Yes, but I'm always disappointed when, in the end, the villain is just a mystical, purely-evil entity.

Bryan: It's a letdown to earlier buildup.

Bryan: I liked Tactics Ogre more than FFT because the villains remained human all the way through.