Googleshng: Hello everyone. Tonight we're going to be talking about recent trends in RPGs, and news from the portable front. But first let's introduce our panelists.

Tomm: I'm Tomm Hulett of Team XKalibur. Not to be all Ireland, but I'm here for discussion on the merit of a game which only a niche group of people know about, which has been delayed longer than humanly possible. I'll no doubt say things which anger some, to which I'm quoted from for years to come, long after my opinions are irrelevant (hint: I'm not making fun of the Irish)

Michael: It is I, Michael Bischoff, your permanent Roundtable panelist and bi-weekly updater. It's Goog's week to update the Roundtable, but I'll be back next week.

Wesley: Welcome to yet another roundtable session, everyone. Many of you have probably seen me here before. No doubt some of you will feel a great need to post about tonight's session, as we have the often debated Sony PSP up for discussion.

Xerox: I'm Xerox. I'm some random guy from IRC chosen because Google had slots to fill. I've played video games for far too long, and have probably beaten more RPGs than most people have even played. It's my goal to play all the RPGs out there. Good luck to me!

Zack: Heyo, all! 'Tis I, Zachary 'Zack' Lewis, RPGamer's resident reviews guy. I'm the same wacky guy that makes all the lame jokes in the Points of View updates, so I'll keep from 'pun'ishing you tonight.

Googleshng: For our first topic tonight, we have the recent rise in Action/RPGs. Once upon a time, they were few and far between, but in more recent years, it's been getting harder and harder to find the traditional turn-based fair on store shelves. Thoughts?

Wesley: Personally, I rather enjoy the rise of action RPGs, though I don't really consider them to be making a huge comeback.

Tomm: I think in the old days, developers were more limited by things like graphics and animation. If they wanted a story, they had to sacrifice animation for text--and thusly, menu based battles were the only way to go. With today's systems, you can have oodles of text AND fluid animation--so developers lean towards action instead of menus.

Zack: I think that as RPGs have become less of a niche genre the 'turn-based fare' have themselves diversified into sub-genres. And with everyone's penchant for the Zelda titles and Seiken Densetsu, action just seems to be picked a lot.

Wesley: To me, action RPGs tend to lend themselves to a larger crowd, because the games feel much more interactive. Sometimes just reading and cycling through menus isn't always my idea of a good time, and I look for something more engaging.

Michael: Action RPGs are quite enjoyable, since the RPG elements add a great deal of depth to a game that might otherwise be devoid of plot or deep combat systems.

Googleshng: Kingdom Hearts comes to mind.

Tomm: Also, if battles are turn-based, the developers have to put actual thought into making the system interesting--or they get reamed by reviewers. An action system in an RPG can be pretty simple, and still be eaten up.

Googleshng: and there of course we get to my complaint with the trend.

Xerox: I like them well enough, though I like traditional RPGs better. I don't mind action/RPGs as long as they still PLAY similarly to RPGs, such as with the Seiken Densetsu games. Though some others, like recent Castlevania games, seem to just have the RPG part optional.

Tomm: "Action" is also easier to pull mainstream into than "pick an option and wait for it to play out." I mean, everyone wants the largest audience possible, right?

Xerox: So it ends up being like an action game, where you have to break up the action to go levelling for a bit. Makes for very weird balance.

Wesley: I think it's an especially large draw because the action aspect doesn't ever have to detract from what most consider the core of an RPG -- the plot. Even though many action RPGs seem to be more action and less story, there is nothing stopping the developers from integrating a very large and complex story in with engaging gameplay.

Zack: I wouldn't say Kingdom Hearts' engine was terrible, myself. It was just poor in control and turned into a button-mashing affair. Which, if an action RPG is done properly, shouldn't be the case.

Googleshng: While Action-RPGs can be plenty fun, they have a tendency to be much shorter, pretty mindless, and largely homogeneous.

Tomm: I had a theory a few years back that games would become more and more RPG-like as time went on. Maybe it's less RPGs going towards action, and more action games using RPG elements.

Googleshng: I could sit here all night bashing the gameplay of Kingdom Hearts honestly, but I'll try to save that for another time.

Michael: I didn't find that the case with the Castlevania games on the GBA. They were quite packed with depth, and while the games themselves were all short, there were enough extra modes incorporated to provide a lot more gameplay.

Xerox: And sometimes they're very friendly to button mashing and not a lot of real strategy required.

Wesley: Leveling doesn't necessarily have to detract from the plot - take, for instance, Planescape: Torment. The game doesn't reward you nearly as much for killing things as it does for making progress in the story, and in that way the story drives leveling at an even pace so that you never really have to take a break from the story to progress your character.

Tomm: Even in turn-based games, I shouldn't be forced to take a break from the story--tweaking out my characters should always be optional

Googleshng: Character building and turn based combat aren't necessarily linked though.

Wesley: Yes, definitely. Some games have definitely suffered from an imbalance that requires you to perform rote leveling simply to progress further in the game.

Googleshng: You have games like Chrono Cross where levels don't really exist on the one hand...

Zack: I would generally say that action and tactical RPGs are on extreme opposite ends of the genre, though. Where action titles seem to be prevalent and offer a wider range of player interest, tactical games seem to take a much longer time to develop and often turn out 'not so good', like Hoshigami.

Googleshng: ...and then there are plenty of Action-RPGs where you sit around killing bunnies before you can possibly stand up to bosses.

Googleshng: There's another point really.

Wesley: Yeah, I would say so. ;)

Michael: I shudder at the thought of Hoshigami, but the best well-done tactical game that turned out very good was, of course Final Fantasy Tactics.

Googleshng: Not too long ago, there was a glut of TRPGs on the market, and now we're in quite the dry spell.

Wesley: There's also different kinds of gamers in that respect, too. Some people really enjoy the required leveling aspect, and some do not.

Tomm: There are TRPGs which utilize more action oriented tactics--like the upcoming Disgaea

Googleshng: Again, I say there seems to be a trend towards the quick and easy on the market.

Michael: We've got FFTA and Onimusha Tactics coming up though, and yes, Disgaea.

Zack: Disgaea was a personal favorite of mine at E3, I must say.

Googleshng: Point.

Googleshng: So maybe TRPGs just like travelling in herds.

Tomm: Hoshigami didn't have a herd...coincidence?

Googleshng: heh

Googleshng: It did before a few delays came about if I recall correctly.

Xerox: It's mostly a balance issue. Since action RPGs are themed more to action, it seems more out of place to have to stop and kill things. Unlike, say, a tactical RPG, where stopping to level doesn't change the gameplay at all.

Michael: I prefer TRPGs myself, since they can combine a knockout plot and great characters with a really awesome battle system, whereas many of the ARPGs I've played seems to be lacking on all these areas.

Tomm: and the plot is an excuse to tie a series of large-scale-battles together

Tomm: ...though TRPGs always end up having deep deep stories.

Googleshng: True enough

Zack: Action RPGs do tend toward weaker character development in my experience.

Wesley: I think that mainly happens due to the kinds of gamers you run across.

Tomm: You could look at it this way--in an action RPG, the player is taking more control of the character, so plot scenes telling you what they're like are less necessary

Wesley: There's the kind that enjoys thinking, strategizing, and the kind that enjoys the more simple pleasures of things such as platformers and first person shooters.

Michael: Although, when it comes to my Game Boy, I do like action RPGs, since I like a quick game that I can just blast through, yet still sate my desire for RPGs.

Googleshng: Getting back towards my original thought though, would you agree that the traditional Dragon Warrior style of RPG seems to be on the way out?

Tomm: Don't get me started on the state of Game Boy RPGs.

Googleshng: (indeed, that's our next topic)

Zack: Very true. I mean, look at Zelda. Link doesn't even talk, and (assuming you count it as an action game in the vein of an RPG) has hordes of rabid followers.

Xerox: Oh, I don't know about weaker plots or characters. That's mainly a game-by-game issue. They could make a good plot, or a bad one. The type of games really doesn't affect this, only who makes it.

Michael: No doubt, Goog.

Xerox: Yeah, I'd say it is.

Wesley: Well, characterization has become more of an issue in modern games that those of old.

Googleshng: Even the Final Fantasy series seems to be moving away from the turn-based approach.

Wesley: Seiken Densetsu is definitely one of my favorite series, but games from that time rarely had any characterization.

Tomm: I think the lack of a wide variety of turn-based RPGs is a result of the glut a few years back

Xerox: Not necessarily with action-RPGs, but with just a total lack of turn-based battles.

Zack: And look at what it is turning into: MMORPG.

Googleshng: Indeed.

Wesley: It wasn't really until Final Fantasy 7's era that games started focusing much more on characterization.

Zack: Can anyone say, 'teh suck'?

Tomm: Everyone and their brother made turn based RPGs back around 2000 (Legend of Dragoon?), but if it wasn't by Square, it floundered, and the publishers "learned their lesson" per se

Wesley: Which, of course, started the character-with-mental-problems trend. :)

Googleshng: I disagree with you on that Wes.

Michael: My limited experience with MMORPGs has me very soured on the genre.

Googleshng: FF4 was really the kick-off for basing RPGs around the characters.

Zack: With Legend of Dragoon showing the way, can you blame developers from being warded away from turn-based affairs?

Michael: Square did do a 180 with the next game in the series though.

Tomm: That's what I'm saying

Wesley: Final Fantasy 4 did start around characters, but I would say there was no heavy emphasis on characterization.

Michael: But came back strong with Final Fantasy 6.

Xerox: Almost all games these days seem to either use an active-time battle, or invent some new similar system. I find that RPG reviewers even tend to criticize games for using turn-based systems, calling them "out-dated", "antiquated", and whatnot.

Zack: I mean... It took them over 3 years to make it and a huge staff to produce... That.

Tomm: In a turn based RPG, you have to go the extra mile to make it interesting, or stand out from the crowd--most publishers aren't willing to spend money doing that

Wesley: Take a look at the kind of complex, deep emotions Square has gotten in the habit of portraying with modern Final Fantasy games.

Wesley: That sort of depth was nowhere near present in Final Fantasy 4, or even 6.

Googleshng: Zack: True, but I doubt most developers look too hard at LoD.

Michael: I will agree with Wes, a quick look at our message boards proves how many people are still talking about Final Fantasy 7's characters.

Wesley: Most characters pre-FF7 had very static problems in their game life.

Xerox: Personally, I like turn-based battles. It adds a new level of strategy to the games. Namely, who's going to attack first. It becomes very important to predict when each character will take their turn.

Zack: As an RPG reviewer I try to look at battle systems as objectively as possible. Turn-based systems have a lot to live up to, though, and I take that into account.

Googleshng: I'd attribute that more to FF7 being most people's first RPG than a statement on the characters.

Wesley: They didn't change, they didn't learn, they didn't go through any act of self-discovery. When something major did happen to them, it wasn't an internal conflict so much as it was a side element to the story.

Michael: Terra was fairly dynamic in FF6, however.

Tomm: Plots are also tending to enlarge tiny, personal issues more so than FF4's emphasis on more sweeping themes...but we all know that

Xerox: Active time battles don't have this, but merely a "come on, come on, fill up faster!" feel to them.

Googleshng: Mike: As were Locke and Celes.

Wesley: Yes, but those kinds of things were... I don't really know how to phrase it

Wesley: The character endured massive change for the sake of the story, as opposed to discovering something inside themselves.

Wesley: Terras was like "Oh my god! I'm half Esper!"

Zack: Tomm: It's getting so an angst-ridden young boy with spiky hair and an anime concept art can't just save the world 'for the fun of it' anymore.

Zack: They always have some personal issue to solve in the process.

Tomm: Zack--yer damn right he can't

Wesley: Being half esper is not a real world problem. :P

Michael: I'd say that it could be characterized as bipolar disorder, Wes.

Wesley: That's a stretch, especially if you know the psychological definition of bipolar disorder. :P

Googleshng: Well, we could go on with this notion all night, but I feel obligated to bring us back on track.

Wesley: Yeah, we've definitely strayed, I'd say.

Googleshng: Final thoughts on the growing percentage of Action/RPGs?

Tomm: I think the turn towards Action is a reactionary response to the number of floundered turn-based RPGs years back

Zack: I would tend to agree.

Wesley: As would I... there was many, many bad turn-based RPGs that came out.

Xerox: It's not really that the games floundered, it's just that people didn't like them.

Michael: So long as I get my TRPGs, and a few traditional RPGs here and there, bring on the Action RPGs.

Zack: Other RPG sub-genres have soured themselves, to steal Mike's phraseology.

Wesley: But I think some of it is also that action RPGs are better received by the public

Wesley: And for many companies, while pleasing their fans is important, so is making money.

Tomm: Except us crazy ones.

Xerox: People used to always gripe about how RPGs weren't "realistic" because you had to fight in turns. So action/RPGs attempt to appeal more to the masses by not having this issue.

Googleshng: And I say Action/RPGs are all well and good, but I'd like to see more than one good, traditional, turn based game a year.

Tomm: To put it simply, Action RPGs solve the "non-gamer" response to turns: "How come he didn't swing his sword yet? I just told him to."

Wesley: One last thing: Action RPGs tend to lend themselves to people without a lot of time, as well.

Googleshng: Very true.

Wesley: As a working class hero, I find a short amount of time with an action RPG is more satisfying than a short amount of time with a turn based game.

Tomm: I agree.

Xerox: I suppose, since they are generally shorter. Though of course they could likely be longer than any other given game.